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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): frustrated.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): And locking horns with seemingly intractable problems and impatient for more progress much more quickly.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): So that got me thinking about a song that we sing a Passover song called Dayenu, in which each line claims that each step of the exodus story would have been enough, even without the rest.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): If we had been led out of Egypt, but the Red Sea hadn't parted it would have been enough if the Red Sea hit party, but we weren't able to cross to the other side, it would have been enough.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): If we'd cross the sea Red Sea but it hadn't we hadn't been sustained in the wilderness, it would have been enough, and so on, and it kind of makes no sense.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): As a contemporary ED I equivalent, we might say if the Wolfenden report had led to the decriminalization of homosexuality, but the age of consent had not been made equal, it would have been enough.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): If the age of consent had been made equal but section 28 had not been repealed, it would have been enough.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): I kind of think well would it really could it possibly have been so the question is how do we move forward and push for progress.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): channeling our dissatisfaction into a productive activist, energy, while also recognizing the progress that is being and has been made, and how do we best use our own experience.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Sometimes these are very problematic and traumatic experiences to help fuel us along the way.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): So this is the first EDIMS open forum event, and that means that there will be more that implies that it is all taking time and it will continue to take time.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): As rabbi Tarfon said in the second century, it is not your duty to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it and all of us here have taken up the challenge of this work.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): And although we may also be frustrated or just overwhelmed by how much there is left to do we're all doing our best.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): So this is maybe a very long way round to a reminder, please for everyone to treat each other with respect both during the session and afterwards.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): To believe that everyone is here, because they want to help do that work and that even if we see the challenges differently or someone is not responding exactly as we would or as we would hope.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): To believe that we are all on the same side in the end we all have stories and our own priorities are on grievances and it's probably what's led us here.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): But let's not air them just for the sake of airing them or because we want to get something off our chest.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): let's use them productively to move the story forward together, there are other spaces, including EDIMS spaces that are better geared for that simple and important cathartic sharing of experience.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): In particular i'd like to remind everyone that we are now recording this session.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): And that we should be particularly mindful of sharing names of individuals or institutions in our discussions, so I.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): look forward to a very exciting conversation sharing some amazing practice that's happening in various institutions around us and with no further ado, then I would like to welcome lauren redhead from Goldsmith to talk about work that's being done across the department.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Yes, thanks, a lot for that that point we are recording in order to put this on the on the Adams websites, so that that's the purpose of recording so i'm going to switch off my camera now and I will hand over to lauren take it away.

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Lauren Redhead: Thank you so much freya and that was a really beautiful introduction to this, so thank you very much and I don't know if I can be as eloquent as the have just been but I.

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Lauren Redhead: will certainly do my best, and yes i'm glad to be here to talk about how we can take up the challenge of that work rather than to talk about things that are finished or.

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Lauren Redhead: Even to talk about things that are really just getting started and i've put a timer on, so I hope that I will not run over as well.

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Lauren Redhead: And I did originally hoped that I would give this presentation, with some of my colleagues from Adam each department at Goldsmiths unfortunately we're all experiencing the same pressures.

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Lauren Redhead: Of the pandemic at the moment, so what i'm going to talk about isn't only my work by very long way and I really want to emphasize that we work together as a program team, and this reflects that so i'm just, if you like, the messenger for our work that we are doing across our department.

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Lauren Redhead: So.

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Lauren Redhead: For those of you who don't know the department at Goldsmiths.

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Lauren Redhead: I just want to start by saying that we have.

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Lauren Redhead: Quite a broad range of degree programs in music and pop music and a degree program that we deliver with the competing department.

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Lauren Redhead: In electronic music competing and technology, and we also have an 11 now a different pathways emma's an ma level, so we have.

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Lauren Redhead: A lot of students who are really studying a very big range of music and so a lot of the questions that we have to ask about their experience of music studies.

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Lauren Redhead: are very broad because of that big range of music practice, and also because of the different ways that they're going about that study so.

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Lauren Redhead: lots of people are writing lots of people are performing lots of people composing lots of people doing things that are.

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Lauren Redhead: Very experimental and new and not necessarily easily categorize people in those terms as well, so there's a lot for us to think about around that and that's perhaps informed some of the ways that we've gone about thinking of questions of equality, diversity and inclusion for our students.

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Lauren Redhead: So I just want to briefly talk about four different things today and.

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Lauren Redhead: As I sort of started off saying, these are ongoing projects of work, these aren't things that were by any means finished doing and.

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Lauren Redhead: they're things that perhaps have directed the conversations that we are having at the moment, so, and one of these comes from our from from goldsmith's in general, which is.

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Lauren Redhead: A kind of commitment, which is called liberate our degrees.

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Lauren Redhead: Then i'm going to talk about two different research projects that have been.

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Lauren Redhead: Taking place that.

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Lauren Redhead: Think about equality diversity and inclusion issues in our curriculum and in our students experience of creative practice.

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Lauren Redhead: And i'm also going to talk about some of the ways that we've been able to link some of the research that goes on in the department to expanding their offer in our teaching.

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Lauren Redhead: So the commitment to liberate our degrees, is one that has come a few years ago from the College, and this is.

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Lauren Redhead: linked to many questions of firstly D colonizing the curriculum, but also the experience of all of our students have their study so in response to this, the department created a.

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Lauren Redhead: Working Group, which is also called liberate our degree and we use this to talk as a group of staff and students and also with our professional colleagues, for example, from the library about how we can go about.

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Lauren Redhead: Expanding the discussions around race decolonization into sexual experience within our student body so obviously that's a really big question it's a really.

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Lauren Redhead: Big amount of work to do and we started with small steps, so one of the first things that we've done.

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Lauren Redhead: Is a project to update the reading list across all of our modules focusing on what resources are recommended to our students and what resources are available to our students, so that has been.

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Lauren Redhead: Basically, a way of looking at how we are providing for learning in our modules and making sure that that learning is accessible as well, so that we're not just recommending scholarship.

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Lauren Redhead: For example, by diverse sources but then our students can't access it through the library so working with our subject librarian has been quite important in this work so that we're.

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Lauren Redhead: directing our resources and directing you know that the budgets that we have towards these questions as well.

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Lauren Redhead: link to this, then we wanted to ask our students about their experience of this and that has come through into our module and assessments, so we now ask all of our students what how did they feel about.

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Lauren Redhead: inclusion within the modules that they study, and this has been I think quite a positive thing to have done so, we have received some positive.

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Lauren Redhead: feedback from students, which has been great but also we've received suggestions from students so where they would like to study and more diverse range of examples, or where they have questions about.

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Lauren Redhead: Access to certain parts of the module, and this is really helpful for us because it highlights things that sometimes might have just gone unnoticed.

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Lauren Redhead: Like access issues with just specific parts of modules it's caused different members of staff from different areas to share resources with each other and to talk to each other about how we can.

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Lauren Redhead: diversify the examples that we're using in our modules so it's it's really also fosters collaboration between us a staff, which has been.

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Lauren Redhead: a really good way to go about this, and so, of course, we know that there's more work to do, and also, although we're glad to receive positive feedback from students were aware that.

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Lauren Redhead: Just because students perceived diversity doesn't mean that diversity is definitely present, and so we want this is an ongoing project of work that we're building on year on year.

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Lauren Redhead: Okay, so um.

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Lauren Redhead: To talk about the to research projects that we have had going on one of these took place in the summer, and this was in combination with a student so.

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Lauren Redhead: Goldsmith has project, where we can hire a research intern who's going from their second year into their third year and.

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Lauren Redhead: That was a student called rain Gonzales who worked who did most of the work on the project, and I really want to emphasize that that she did a really, really.

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Lauren Redhead: Great and thorough job, and so the initial starting point for the project was to think about Decarbonising and D colonizing the music curriculum.

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Lauren Redhead: And it was probably a bit ambitious for what we could achieve in the time but we set out to do, a survey of literature about D colonizing the curriculum, we also set out to look at.

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Lauren Redhead: Online publish information about music curricular to look at admissions criteria across the UK and also to represent the student voice, and then we applied what we had found to an undergraduate module that I lead called approaches to contemporary music.

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Lauren Redhead: So the what absolutely loads of findings from this and we're still working through them.

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Lauren Redhead: But we split them into two categories, because what we found was, although the project was titled decriminalizing and D colonizing actually we found information that was about other issues of equality, diversity and inclusion as well.

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Lauren Redhead: So some of the questions that we had to ask were you know how can we include the perspectives of black educators in the curriculum where they're not currently present, how can we question ascetic systems of value that might preserve inequality.

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Lauren Redhead: We looked at module offer and how that links with diversity of opportunities for study so, for example, a really interesting thing that came out was that country.

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Lauren Redhead: There are a lot more modules on offer, with British in the title than we were expecting and that was quite an interesting thing that that we observed.

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Lauren Redhead: We also looked at do quota systems work and is that a good way to diversify what is studied in any given set of modules.

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Lauren Redhead: And we also looked at language and how language could, first of all, indicate where decolonization might be happening, but also what language might be used to signal that but, in fact.

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Lauren Redhead: might be hiding the fact that changes are not yet being made, so there was really a lot for us to think about that came out of that and that's just informing the way that we're starting to think about further developments in our curriculum that we might make.

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Lauren Redhead: But we also discussed many other topics which are related to this, but not only about decolonization so this included about where notation is needed to study musical practice or not, and whether students have access to that or access to the ability to learn it where they want it so.

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Lauren Redhead: That that seems quite uneven at the moment and it's something that we're thinking about quite a lot at Goldsmiths i'm just at the moment, beginning.

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Lauren Redhead: Projects of work with the competing department looking at how we can make a kind of.

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Lauren Redhead: game of fide approach to supporting music theory that people can opt into if they want to learn it, for example, and we also looked at issues of access and how this relates to admissions criteria and we talked about how.

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Lauren Redhead: lots of things that talk about decolonization.

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Lauren Redhead: we're not necessarily.

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Lauren Redhead: dealing only with that topic, but we're also talking about other issues of equality, diversity and inclusion, for example, thinking about class thinking about disability and.

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Lauren Redhead: Those things are, of course, important as well, and so what we kind of concluded was it's not helpful to use the word de colonizing well, we might be actually talking about a broader approach to equality diversity and inclusion for all students, which is intersection and.

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Lauren Redhead: That needs to think about all aspects of their study and their experience.

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Lauren Redhead: That leads me on to the project which has just begun, and this is about inclusive curriculum design, and this is.

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Lauren Redhead: One of my colleagues, Caroline Kennedy working hand in hand with the teaching and learning innovation Center and her focus is on.

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Lauren Redhead: Creative practice in learning and teaching, which is obviously a very important topic for our students and for us.

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Lauren Redhead: In a lot of the modules that we are delivering and so she's looking at three groups of students, initially, who are marginalized in education and thinking about the experience that they have and the support that they receive.

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Lauren Redhead: In studying credit practice Now this is at the moment at a really early stage so.

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Lauren Redhead: In more of a kind of literature review stage of that research but she's hoping to work toward exploring increase diversity as a model of.

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Lauren Redhead: teaching, practice for creative practice and thinking about how this can really inform the way that we think about creative practice curricula.

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Lauren Redhead: No matter what area of music, they are developed in and so hopefully the outcomes of that will include not only a discussion of the research, but a toolkit that will be useful for us and then hopefully can also be considered beyond Goldsmith at some point in the future.

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Lauren Redhead: And then, finally, I just want to mention some other projects that are going on in the department and.

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Lauren Redhead: First, how these links with some of our research unit, so the Asian research Asian music unit is a research unit that's led by Dr bonnie Norton who.

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Lauren Redhead: Some of you may be familiar with his work already so he works to bring visiting artists in particular from Indonesia and.

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Lauren Redhead: there's a gamelan group that is run as part of a module where students can not only learn about that musical tradition, and not only learn instrument, but also learn from those musicians when they visit and perform with them.

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Lauren Redhead: One of our graduates also has worked in a project that links up carnatic music in Lewisham with the university and there's a nice documentary video that we have produced about those links.

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Lauren Redhead: fellas that we also have the Afghanistan music unit, which is doing really interesting and important work at the moment digitizing archives of recording and video.

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Lauren Redhead: That go back to the 1970s so obviously a period of.

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Lauren Redhead: Really really great change during that time and another piece of work that they're doing is to create an online tutor for people who wanted either above and so to kind of bring knowledge of that instrument specifically and it's tradition and through that research.

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Lauren Redhead: I should say there's some things in my slides and I don't think I have time to actually show any of these things but i'm very happy to share them so that you can see these videos later.

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Lauren Redhead: And then the final things that I wanted to mention our projects that are going on in the department, not necessarily in research units so.

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Lauren Redhead: We have a project called alchemy, which is an outreach project that works with young people in Lewisham who want to learn skills of music production and practical.

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Lauren Redhead: musicianship skills and that's led by Michael Patrick and again we've got a kind of small documentary in a interview with him that was produced by my colleague Alex delay see.

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Lauren Redhead: We also have students now involved in bear ensemble and that's run by local guys so they're really kind of learning about that musical culture through that ensemble and they're also.

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Lauren Redhead: developing their their knowledge of that musical practice as well as the theoretical knowledge of the music and finally at the.

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Lauren Redhead: army annual conference in September, which we hosted online we hosted a round table talking specifically about these issues in music education.

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Lauren Redhead: So the slt the rma contributed to that lead and contributed to that as well, and that was chaired by.

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Lauren Redhead: My colleague Dr Stephen grams, so if you want to hear what was said about this topic in much more detail and during that round table that's now also available online to watch.

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Lauren Redhead: So this has been a whistle stop tour I think i've got 14 seconds left so i'm just going to say thank you to you for it and I don't at this point yeah thanks very much.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): That was marvelous Thank you so much for taking us through such a massive inflation and interesting practice that on.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): So we'll come to questions and answers at the end.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): participants should be able to see a question answer session box along the bottom of their screens, if you do want to drop anything in.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): In that, then we can come to it once we've heard all of the speakers i'm going to pass on now to.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): To Evelyn and she's coming everyone for car is coming to us from Sussex and she's in fact leading a veritable swarm of Sussex people, so the coordinating a herd.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): By the looks of things have also taught and Nick and me me so i'll hand over to Evelyn and she will keep the sausage lot in check, I think okay take it away.

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Evelyn Ficarra: Thank you very much for a it's a delightful to be here and thank you to the Goldsmith that's.

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Evelyn Ficarra: that's very inspiring to hear the kind of work you've been doing so i'm going to hand over to my colleague sore and I think the order of events is Thor than me me then Nick and then me we're each going to speak for about three minutes.

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Evelyn Ficarra: Okay Thor go ahead and unmute.

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Evelyn Ficarra: Yes, oh good.

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Thor Magnusson: Thank you Evelyn and thanks lauren as well, for your great talk yeah with my colleagues, I would like to present a little bit what we're doing at Sussex.

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Thor Magnusson: But at the University of Sussex we've had an active EPI policy for a number of years, additionally, the student Union at Sussex has had a strong D colonizing agenda.

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Thor Magnusson: which has had a great impact and in music we've had we've been conscious of how we're approaching these issues in our modules.

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Thor Magnusson: So more formally in our school of media arts and humanities we're implementing extensive changes in this regard, and we have an ETA working group in our music department.

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Thor Magnusson: and are working decolonization as part of an overall approach addressing these things.

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Thor Magnusson: So for over a year we've been working with our school director of Race Equality and student representatives on the decolonization issue.

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Thor Magnusson: we've also been working with our curriculum officer and she has contributed to our discussions and plans about curriculum design in terms of equality diversity inclusion.

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Thor Magnusson: And we see decolonization as part of a larger project, so we came up with a title for this talk, which was towards the colonized and inclusive music curriculum.

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Thor Magnusson: And we really think that the term towards is here for a reason, because the colonization and eat the Ai is not a one off event, where we go through our own modules and we implement major changes once for all.

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Thor Magnusson: The rather it's a it's a continuous process where we think and implement and discuss and learn through meetings and workshops, so it feels like every.

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Thor Magnusson: Every meeting or every some meeting that we run we learn something and we sharpen our ideas and our language and our sensitivity to these issues, so in this short session we're just going to present some of the work, some of the ongoing work that we're doing at Sussex.

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Thor Magnusson: But these are steps that are seen as steps in along the journey and we're not presenting this as some kind of an ideal practice we're just putting it here.

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Thor Magnusson: For the sake of discussion and declare our stance and productivity in this important work that I think we're all doing, who are on this some meeting here so yeah i'll hand over to Evelyn done and she's going to present some.

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Evelyn Ficarra: Some of her actually actually made me is next.

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Thor Magnusson: Thank you.

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Evelyn Ficarra: Thank you, thank you for and over to you Mimi thanks.

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Mimi Haddon: hi everyone thanks, very much for having us here this evening so i'm just going to present something very, very short, something that i've initiated in one of my modules.

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Mimi Haddon: That engages with issues, issues and touches on decolonization to some extent, so when I was doing the PG search at at Sussex I wrote a new module.

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Mimi Haddon: it's called histories of women in music and it takes to kind of really a kind of genre approach to thinking about different the different ways that we can tell.

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Mimi Haddon: women's stories in music, so the topics include women in jazz women in hip hop women and electronic music.

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Mimi Haddon: And so, as I said, I designed this while I was doing the PG certain he and some of the literature that I was reading, while I was doing that qualification was on D colonizing methodologies specifically pertaining to music and I encountered an article that discuss.

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Mimi Haddon: A workshop that was led by a latinx educator who.

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Mimi Haddon: wanted to encourage all the participants in the workshop to as a kind of full final reflection on their participation, the workshop he wanted them to wrap their will majority white.

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Mimi Haddon: Why educators who are participating in the workshop and but he wanted to ask them to wrap so that they would engage with alternative forms of knowledge, making so I thought this was kind of an interesting idea, and so in this module histories of women and music for the midterm assessment.

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Mimi Haddon: Which is 30% of the grade, I asked the students to do anything other than an academic presentation.

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Mimi Haddon: And there are three reasons for doing this at least three.

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Mimi Haddon: The first is that we talk a lot in the module about what it's you know what it means to work within an institution what it means to create work within kind of oppressive structures, so I wanted to encourage the students, not to play the.

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Mimi Haddon: Not to play by the rules of the institution, but to do something different so that's one reason why I wanted to do that.

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Mimi Haddon: The second reason is, we also exploring the module and the way that women's creative work is often improvisation improvise a tree it's kind of made within.

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Mimi Haddon: kind of context of having to having to work around not really having the right equipment, not always having the right kind of mentoring, maybe.

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Mimi Haddon: Having to kind of improvise so that's another reason why I encourage them to participate in this or to perform this kind of experimental work in the mid term.

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Mimi Haddon: And then the final reason for doing it is that I think it allows students to who aren't particularly confident with kind of academic presentation skills to engage with the material of the module in an alternative way.

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Mimi Haddon: So some of the responses that we've had have been really brilliant we've had spoken word poetry we've had students write songs we've had podcast episodes we've had kind of bits of performance art.

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Mimi Haddon: And I also ask them to supply supporting commentary to kind of explain explain the creative work that they've done and, at the end, there is a kind of conventional 4000 word academic essay so.

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Mimi Haddon: yeah that's why i've done.

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Evelyn Ficarra: Thank you Mimi as either that's perfectly timed if you've come to the end there Thank you so much i'd like to hand over now to my colleague, Nick till professing it till.

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Nick Till: I everybody i'm.

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Nick Till: About 10 years ago, I took over a course at Sussex called the rise of classical music, it was a fairly straightforward kind of heightened to bronze dropped through and then you hand the baton over to the next colleague who picks up with debussy to stockhausen.

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Nick Till: Over the kind of period of my teaching it gradually shifted the content and the emphasis of of the module.

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Nick Till: And a couple of years ago, I actually suggested we change the title to not the rise of classical music, but the idea of classical music.

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Nick Till: um if you read between the lines you can read the ideology of class music perhaps on and I always discussed with the students or remind them that this constant the term classical comes from a Roman term.

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Nick Till: And Latin term that is about classification of people distinction.

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Nick Till: classes, but i'm going to the highest class of citizens, and so I kind of show how try and show them how that's embedded in the way we think about certain musical practices.

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Nick Till: um but then, rather than simply let's say, looking at the cannon and adding in some women into the cannon adding in people of color non white people.

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Nick Till: To the cannon the way i've approached it is actually to ask questions like well what work do cannons do in creating exclusions, in the first place, it, how do they embed it approved ideological institutional structures.

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Nick Till: And, and then we look at some of the kind of ways in which classical music has has been again ideologically constructed.

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Nick Till: So, for instance, the way in which the prevailing privileging of the intellect as the sort of highest aspiration of the classical piece of music.

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Nick Till: Very often associated also with the complexity as as being a sign of intellectual achievement and how that kind of way of thinking about valuing the intellect and complexity let's say underpins a whole set of other exclusions are other ways in which.

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Nick Till: Certain people's whether it's women or non white people's or whatever, are there by kind of institution they excluded because part of the rationalization or on this journey has has worked with these kinds of exclusions of masculine intellect against feeding or whatever.

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Nick Till: Oh, we look at the idea of.

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Nick Till: sort of universality.

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Nick Till: classical music Western classical music European classical music is supposed to be universally to values are supposed to be universal.

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Nick Till: And that.

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Nick Till: Again, how that works as a kind of form of cultural imperialism I centrally.

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Nick Till: So that we, in a sense, you could say why are we still teaching classical music, but I also try and show them explain how.

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Nick Till: You know, it still occupies an enormous space in in in in our sort of you know.

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Nick Till: Cultural intellectuals fear of authority and until we can see how whether that's in terms of how much money it's public money it gets given or.

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Nick Till: You know the the kind of ways associated with with class and race and so on, that we need to understand what what the history of this this formula.

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Evelyn Ficarra: that's brilliant Thank you so much rick um so yeah i'm also going to talk kind of micro level of an individual module.

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Evelyn Ficarra: We have a module first year core module called introduction to music studies, and this is a critical musicology module so it looks at the field as an introduction to the field itself and asked the question how do we study.

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Evelyn Ficarra: Music, we look at it from a cultural, historical perspective psychological perspectives evolutionary we look at performance practice performance says, research and so on, so.

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Evelyn Ficarra: The module was really beautifully designed by my colleagues and I had the chance to teach it for the first time in the autumn.

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Evelyn Ficarra: And I decided on the kind of two pronged approach.

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Evelyn Ficarra: Because it seemed to me that D canonized in the curriculum was now parts of a current musicological thoughts and so it needed to be taught as a kind of topic within this so.

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Evelyn Ficarra: I decided that we would talk about column D colonizing the music curriculum from week one as a kind of touchstone and that we would sort of go back to it now and again, as we were looking at the other.

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Evelyn Ficarra: topics and that we would also set aside further into the term a full week looking at D colonizing of literature, so in week one along with some basic introductory musicology readings, I asked students to look at the manifesto by David sharpness and Maria Ryan that.

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Evelyn Ficarra: To 2018 manifesto D colonize the music survey, and I also asked them to look at a journal article, or rather a piece of journalism and the Guardian cold, it puts me off musicians on why white syllabuses deter black talent and I found that these readings were very popular among students.

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Evelyn Ficarra: And so it was really useful kind of introductory way to to bring that and topic in and then in our D colonized week, which was week eight we looked at the Philip you will article music theory and the white racial frame and also at the number of case studies around notions of appropriation.

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Evelyn Ficarra: I tried to give students, a sense of context around the notion of decolonization including definitions of colonialism questions around diversity inclusion.

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Evelyn Ficarra: As opposed to perhaps dismantling the whole structure and starting again.

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Evelyn Ficarra: I really tried to get them to talk about how they've studied music in the past how how they would want to study, music and I also we also talked.

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Evelyn Ficarra: In broader context about anti racism and critical whiteness studies.

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Evelyn Ficarra: As well as digging into the details of the your argument, so I mean overall, it was really interesting the students were very thoughtful and engaged and I felt and.

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Evelyn Ficarra: I felt glad that also in in the assessment, some of the students did talk about D colonizing so that the thoughts kind of permeated through I mean we throw them a lot of stuff in that module, but it seems to be.

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Evelyn Ficarra: Working pretty well and an idea that came out of the cultural was that we perhaps as a students and faculty combined could form a kind of extracurricular working group.

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Evelyn Ficarra: Looking at different types of music that we don't know as much about so trying to get out of our own like frames of what music is and explore that together.

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Evelyn Ficarra: So my phone has frozen I can't see my timer anymore, but I think I probably come to the end.

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Evelyn Ficarra: So just thank you very much.

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Evelyn Ficarra: it's been really interesting to be involved here.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): That super job Thank you all of you for quite remarkable set of stuff there and try to be.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): More questions asking you to clarify things or other ideas that might sort of bounce off that will move on without further ado, then to to will will determine if you want to make yourself visible there is from sound of music will I will leave everything with you go ahead.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): All right, thank you and yeah thanks everyone who's speaking so far it's been really fascinating to hear.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): All the work that you're doing and so i'm approaching this from a slightly different angle as a as a professional body.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): So we are the national organization for new music and our vision is to create a world when you music and sound prospers.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): Transforming lives challenging expectations and celebrating the work of its creators.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): As sound of music, we support a diverse range of talented composers, to develop their work we have audiences to discover and experience the music and we enable children and young people to explore their musical creativity.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): We strive for a world in which more people of all ages and from all backgrounds have more opportunities to access create an enjoy new music.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): So the sort of internal structure of Santa music can be broken down into essentially three core aims and they fall under the following categories, so we have artists development and i'm head of artist development.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): We also have audience engagement and we have education sound of music is also responsible for overseeing the British music collection, which is now a digital platform.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): developed from the archive of the British music information Center which is now based at heritage key in huddersfield.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): And we also run the sampler, which is a listing site for new music around the country, so I joined the organization back at the end of 2018 and Center music had already a.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): Strong legacy of collecting and publishing data since 2013 from across its artists programs, and this was to encourage transparency and really build trust with composers, that we were.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): Trying to effect real change and measurable change.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): And we have historically as well, share the challenges and areas where we need to improve in accompanying blogs and and.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): My published work where we talk about a particular years and data, and we look at areas where things are particularly.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): Where things might be working or where we have to make improvements and in 2019, for example, we reported that black Africans to artist development programs and, in particular, new voices.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): had previously been underrepresented, and that we needed to think and act far more radically if we were to make opportunities more accessible and inclusive.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): This led us to quickly create the fair access principles in between to November 2019 and they're going live in back this time last year, please say lauren was one of their competitors who support us with the development of those those principles.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): The principles were devised in conjunction with our Board of Trustees and also the composer advisory group, and this is the group that lauren is a part of.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): Essentially, the fair access principles can be broken down into four categories, and this is in order to make.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): A sort of a code of best practice for running successful open and inclusive artists development programs competitions and awards for composers.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): And I should also say at this point, the definition of composer composer varies between organizations and it sounded music, we mean anyone creating their own music in any style or genre.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): And we have I guess doggedly stuck with this word composer in a bid to democratize the term I often think in the same way as.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): Possibly the word curator has become a embedded in our language of.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): Everything from an independent exhibition maker through to a individual preparing their salad and so hopefully one day composing will be as wide and colorful.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): So, with the fair access principles it's broken up into four categories and we looked at the application process, the selection process money and conversation so.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): I won't read all of the principles and I can share a link to to the page on our website, but with these principles we have developed a series of.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): partnerships in the wider sector we're up to 12 partners across the sector at the moment, and this includes national organizations like.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): snape maltings Drake music Scotland PRS foundation sage Gateshead more recently London symphony London symphony orchestra.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): Small ensembles like legacy Quartet and the role for them like society who have signed up to the principles and.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): If we look at some of the key principles that have at times been most contentious or whether area of work to do, if we look at the application process we've we've looked at things like making sure that all.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): Austin opportunities are free to enter they allow entry, regardless of age educational level or qualification.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): They allowed composers, to submit work which have already been created, with no limit on time period.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): We offer accessible application processes proactively offer access support and alternative application methods.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): And we also make sure we have named points of contact and a realistic deadline for applications practically offering flexibility regarding the schedules.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): So, to put this in context with our primary application for new voices which is an 18 month artist development program it's incredibly competitive.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): We often get about in this last year we had 500 over 500 individuals who registered, which then translated into 206 applications from which we selected eight composers, for the program and a father 10 composers for seed funding.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): We have implemented the pharisees principles in this and one I guess area that I would want to draw attention to.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): Is during the application during the registration call, which is a four week window where all we require is for composers interested in the opportunity to submit a name and email address and complete an equal opportunity to form.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): And the reason for this is so that we can understand who is applying to who might potentially apply to the program, and this will numbers involved and also the breakdown of.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): of individuals and how we might reach communities that are not necessarily presented from that data, we also have our own internal measures as to what.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): Areas that we need to have more representation, and so we look at those keenly so, for example in in this year's new voices call out.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): Halfway through the registration period we did a sort of crunching the data and realize that we're only reached 80% what only 8% of those who had completed a form, and it was about a 90% completion rate.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): And only 8% actually were telling us that they were deaf or disabled and through a series of interventions which included very targeted marketing and work with a pipeline of organizations that we have very good relations with we were able to.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): shift that shift that to 14% of those registered.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): Who identified as a definite disabled so whilst we cannot say what the direct relationship was between our interventions, I think it strongly suggest that using that data at that point in the process.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): had a direct effect on on the numbers and it meant that, when we looked at those who who went into the application phase.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): Of this, and a number of other measures, we were able to see that actually the pool of the long list, so to speak, was very.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): was very representative across our internal internal measures so that's one way in which the first principles have supported actual change in the way that we.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): We set up our programs in the selection process we have an open and transparent selection process, so we publish all the details of how the applicants are going to be assessed, and we also publish the names of the external panelists who we rotate every year.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): Importantly, still, and this is probably the most contentious we do not use anonymized selection, so we have.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): A number of voluntary questions and one of which is a voluntary diversity question where they can disclose any particular information that they might want us to take into consideration when we're going through to.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): The panel days, and we also make sure our sexual selection panelists are inclusive and as representative as possible and again this is across a variety of ways, but.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): Importantly, as well as cost the breadth of music making that's being made, so this year's this year's external panelists included.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): climactic scene singer and compose soprano garage and to clergy, who is a producer on the hyper dub record label two composers Lloyd Coleman who works for the paradox job and and also gosh I think a couple of the others are testing my memory, but it was a it was a wonderful panel.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): And what it meant was, I think that, because we've made that clear in all of our materials for applications and in a way that the panel reflected the type of composers, we were hoping to inspire applications from.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): And we have done a lot of work with the first principles to develop this partnership series of partners and that will be announcing it another round of partners.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): At the end of this month, when we hold our first assembly to explore the learning from this past year.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): And we have got all of our partners attending that plus some of the wider sector as well, those who are interested in our work and looking closely at the development.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): we've also got our composer advisory group returning to to represent, composers and make sure that their voices are in the room, as well.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): And this is something that we're rolling out across all of our programs and awards and where we've got partner delivery partners, for example, it's it's taken a bit more work to make sure that everyone is is clear about the processes and the ways of.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): You know even things like what platforms are are accessible to a variety of needs so we've sort of managed to finally get to a point where we've got a very good piece of software it's not bespoke to us so that still has its limitations.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): But it means that we can accept a variety of text based applications video sound we're always open to.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): The multiplicity multiplicity of ways, composers might want to send in their work, we took a phone call and just recorded phone call and uploaded it software as well for one composer and it's just having that flexibility and approach, not knowing fully what.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): What might be asked of us so in a way it's a huge learning experience for us but it's having that named approach and having that flexibility is is is is really important, and then also having the messaging that.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): That we are available to speak and I personally supported a number of composers, through the early phases of the application process.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): To make sure that they felt comfortable with with language and and and sort of communicating their artistic developmental needs.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): So the first principles continues to so called ripples in the professional sector and it's it's it's really rewarding to see this but there's obviously a large amount of work to be done, still.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): And recently we've just undertaken an impact survey, with a composer community of Santa music, as well as the ivers academy and we'll be publishing details of that in the coming coming weeks.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): But we were able to understand, not just the financial impact on composers, at this time, but also look at a cross section of.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): of data to understand what how what the new barriers that composers, are facing and and how this is.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): On an intersection level as well, so it should really help us in forming new programs agile programs in the coming years ahead as we live with the effects of this pandemic on the music making in this country.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): And so i'd also like to quickly talk about some of them are.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): Well, what.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): How what how much else do you have up your sleeve, just so that I have a sense of of your plan right now.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): yeah I say, I have one more minutes we're just.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): going.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): To quickly go through sorry.

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Okay.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Go for it go for it.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): So, with the British music collection, this is probably somewhere that aligns a bit closer to.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): Some of the work that you're doing in your institutions and just to say I guess the British music collection is something that historically is based on new music making in this country since the late 1800s and is probably.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): Is is has been kind of one One characteristic primary over the years, so this is what it kind of looks like at the moment and we do very specific calls for contributors.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): And, as always paid opportunities for editorial content that looks and engages with the collection, to make it more representative of music making today so i'll leave it there and hand you hand it back to Fred.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): that's marvelous Thank you so much well i'm sorry I didn't I didn't want to cut you off, but I didn't know how much I.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): My tires you.

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Will Dutta (Sound and Music): know as good as the others.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): They obviously had it absolutely down pat so maybe what we could do is bring all the panelists back onto video just now.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): And then I will encourage people again to to put things in the question answer we've had quite a few people just registering in the Q amp a that they did have trouble.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): actually getting in to the session, so let me kind of answer all of those people, and anyone who was thinking of writing the same thing, just to say.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Yet, really, really sorry about that this is the first time that we've used a webinar setup.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): And the first time that we've used eventbrite and I imagine that somewhere in amongst all of that there has been one of the few glitches in terms of getting people in so thank you for letting us know about it we're really sorry that happened we'll try and practice things.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Ahead of the next time so that we've got things a little bit bit more smooth there now, there were a few questions and they've all just moved to the answered section I think everyone has been very diligently writing.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): The names of everyone was asked it for the names of the articles that she mentioned as part of the module so that people could could read them on their in various answers there a window after all of this, perhaps you could even.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): send us the links that you've also included there and then we can get them round by email to anybody who did participate in today would that be okay.

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Evelyn Ficarra: yeah absolutely and i'm Sorry, I think I answered a bunch of random other questions, and I think I was hitting the wrong type answer but.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): that's that's absolutely fine i've kept i've kept track on which ones have inadvertently moved to the answered section.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): And we'll we'll do them just now, so what i'll do is I will read out the the question and and then invite the person who asked it to come off mute if they wanted to so that they can.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): participate in the discussion there so i'm going to turn first to imaging lawler who writes and could nixle please expand on what he means by the authority.

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Thor Magnusson: In the public sphere of.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): classical music, what is the public sphere I feel like we have very different spheres image and I hope that's a reasonable representation of your question, though.

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Imogen Lawlor (she,her): uh yeah Hello.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Perfect yes, we can hear you loud and clear, thank you, oh.

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Okay.

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Imogen Lawlor (she,her): um yeah I mean that was what I asked.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Okay that's good.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): I don't know about other people, but whatever I write questions they're always well I don't know if they're less coherent and when I asked them verbally but.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): yeah i'm kind of equally incoherent I guess but yes, well done so there's the question Nick.

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Nick Till: You have to question yeah.

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Nick Till: i'm using public sphere in the sort of you know harper mass bourgeois public sphere kind of way.

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Nick Till: But I get well just to think of two two aspects, I mean I I know what you're getting out but, but just to quickly respond offering to sort of aspects until relatively recently.

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Nick Till: All of the broadsheet newspapers pad concert reviews every day.

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Nick Till: very, very infrequently had popular music reviews or non Western music reviews, or whatever, that is, the US or the consensus forming you know institutional kind of fun way in which that that that notion of the public sphere is is is conveyed.

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Nick Till: And the fact that public money is massively allocated to classical music, as opposed to most it's changing it shifting.

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Nick Till: took a long time for jazz to be recognized as a as an art form that would actually might require some some kind of public funding to.

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Nick Till: support it, for instance, and there are very heated arguments around whether or not you should or shouldn't promote Funk jazz, let alone other other musical genres but, but you know, the fact that public money, the arts Council does is sits there as a great sort of.

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Nick Till: dispenser of value and and so on, is another way in which.

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Nick Till: The you know that that notion of the public sphere, which is not just a discursive construction because there's money attached to it as well, clearly, in the case of.

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Nick Till: The arts COM, so that that that's what I mean by by the sort of weight of classical music in the public sphere is that makes sense.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): that's great thanks Nick imaging is there anything you want to follow up to the top.

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Imogen Lawlor (she,her): And yeah no I thought you were gonna say something like that I just wanted to ask, because I was it clarified I think it's it's something that having not been in university for a while, if I were a student coming back in.

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Imogen Lawlor (she,her): I don't think that's how I would have defined it when I was an undergraduate as public sphere and music, I think I would have probably been quite surprised to hear that now I get what you mean but.

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Imogen Lawlor (she,her): I don't know it's just if we start throwing around sounds like public sphere and music when you're an undergraduate and you're putting up thinking about the arts Council England for where the funding comes from your brain is thinking about what you have access to.

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Nick Till: yeah and I, you know I know i've learned that most of them don't aren't actually aware of how how.

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Nick Till: Funding of classical music works, how it happened, so you know that's one of the things we talked about, we have a session language, we talk about those kinds of questions.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): marvelous thanks so much Okay, it looks like we had a another question from Andrew at bmt he's seems to have this question answered and.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): By lauren and he seems to have had to leave, I guess, he was just kind of acknowledging, I think that Goldsmith validates the north of robins music therapy masters and PhDs provide support to students and lecturers lauren, perhaps you could just.

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Imogen Lawlor (she,her): sort of talk us through the.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Role of students in.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): The researchers use of explaining to Andy there Andy Andrew is what I meant I didn't mean Andrew Andrew there we go.

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Lauren Redhead: Yes, I think in terms of our involvement with the day to day running of these music therapy programs that's not something that's a very, very close relationship in terms of what the border program team.

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Lauren Redhead: are doing so that they're an important group of students, obviously, but there's I think there's work for us to do to be.

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Lauren Redhead: in touch with date so our students at the moment are involved in our work in in a number of ways, and they are part of our liberate our degrees group.

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Lauren Redhead: As I mentioned we've involved some students in different research projects that we've done and we also have involve them in curriculum development, specifically through.

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Lauren Redhead: Creating different focus groups and trying to work with different groups of students.

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Lauren Redhead: But there's still further planning, I think, to be done there so, for example, I mentioned in my response to Andrew that we have an international foundation certificate, and I think there's.

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Lauren Redhead: lots of things that we'd like to do to work with those students more more deeply and in September will start a new integrated foundation year degree so we'll have.

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Lauren Redhead: A wider number of foundation students, and so we have plans for thinking about students are all different levels of their educational journey can be involved in this work so.

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Lauren Redhead: that's definitely an area that I think is really important, but it's also one that we want to expand and I think we've also identified that there are lots of groups of students who we want to engage but who aren't engaged, not because they don't.

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Lauren Redhead: Think about these issues or they're not affected by them, but for other reasons, so, for example, mature students.

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Lauren Redhead: Often aren't able to take part in initiatives within the department and that might be because.

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Lauren Redhead: they're working they're carrying the other reasons why they can't give of their time outside of their studies, but also, they can be disproportionately affected.

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Lauren Redhead: By issues of equality, diversity and inclusion in this study, so I think it's a really important question and it's a much bigger question that is going to take longer to resolve, but yeah I think it's really good to highlight that as well.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): that's amazing.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Thanks so much lauren and we did have one other question from Jane as well foreigner.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): who asked what there was a forum or space exists within the network for sharing things like syllabus and module designs and and things like that and.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Particularly regarding different approaches to the sort of introduction to musicology sort of courses that so many of us are involved with.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): And sort of very keen to learn about.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): You know each other's approaches and so on, and a lot of fans responded sort of insight to that question to say that you know, obviously, a big part of what these open forum events for.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): we're planning a section on the website for sharing good practice and we do have a working group.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): that's liaising with individual departments I don't know whether we have anybody here from that working group that's working on curriculum stuff maybe you could raise your hand if you are here doesn't look like it.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): I guess this might be an interesting time to sort of segue on to a more general invitation to people who might want to sort of share.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Just in brief kind of shouts out to something that they're doing within their own departments if anybody's got any sort of interesting things that they've been.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): practicing within their own department other cases that they've heard of just use the raise hand button or type something in the the Q amp a and I can certainly take people off mute if you'd like to.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Jane I wonder whether i'm just going to kind of invite you to say anything else if you wanted to if you've got some particular ideas or anything that you wanted to share it all.

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Jane Isabelle Forner: So thanks yeah I just to clarify by shall I men.

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Jane Isabelle Forner: Obviously, just talking, I was just really when I was hearing ambulance Okay, I was thinking.

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Jane Isabelle Forner: You know I have i'm teaching on to i've been teaching on two courses this year that are like intro to musicology in some respects at two different institutions.

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Jane Isabelle Forner: Both very, very different courses and how much i'm thinking about if I can rejecting that for next year, and how just looking at other services and sharing my own with other people that kind of thing.

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Jane Isabelle Forner: So I did mean definitely share just in the sense of these charts and that kind of thing, but whether there was.

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Jane Isabelle Forner: Any space where people could just upload their cellar by and with a little note that says, this is what i've done and it works.

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Jane Isabelle Forner: Just to have those documents, of course I realized, I can email people individually in and ask if that's possible that might be if that's something that might be possible, I definitely be really interested in that.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): yeah I think that's a really exciting idea, particularly kind of sharing of entire services with the reading list and things like that.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): As the person who for for sins is involved in overseeing the website for Adams, I can certainly say that where.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): it's a work in early stages of progress and we're keen to have a sort of a space where people can share.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): A syllabus and you know, maybe even somebody might want to do you know, a five minute.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Video walkthrough, of course, and just kind of, say, this is what I do this is how well it works, this is the These are the problems that I have with that.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): So as yeah I think I think there are all kinds of spaces to to be able to do that and it all it needs is is the will and the enthusiasm behind it, I think Lada wants to come in and say something on this as well.

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Laudan Nooshin: Thanks, for you know just to ECHO really what pres just said that, I think, actually this, the purpose of sharing aspect of the network is one of the most important roles, I think that, in the way that we see what we how we can help the sector.

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Laudan Nooshin: and definitely the website will have a section for sharing.

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Laudan Nooshin: seller by and so on, where people are willing to do so.

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Laudan Nooshin: One of the issues has just been a matter of time and person power and we sent out a call.

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Laudan Nooshin: last term and have gathered some information, but we just haven't had time to put it up yet.

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Laudan Nooshin: But I think there's also The challenge for us is the logistics of exactly how we share this stuff so we're really open to suggestions of things that might be useful, we have got a page.

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Laudan Nooshin: of resources on the website at the moment but.

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Laudan Nooshin: I think sometimes Those are some limited use just simply having a list of stuff it's really useful to know what people have tried what's worked what hasn't worked but finding a sort of streamlined way of sharing that I think is not easy, so please any suggestions will be really welcome.

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Jane Isabelle Forner: Thank you.

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Jane Isabelle Forner: yeah I can appreciate that, as the current Member of about 10 different.

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Jane Isabelle Forner: Google drive systems with annotated reading lists and pdfs of all sorts of things and yeah I think there's definitely there's no perfect solution to get that up there straight away, but yeah.

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Jane Isabelle Forner: We can figure it out, I mean I just my brains been fishing with so many ideas just from hearing everything today, it strikes me that.

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Jane Isabelle Forner: One thing I want to do in my own institution has go back and do this kind of peer review of each other's sort of pedagogy reading as a BA BA BA.

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Jane Isabelle Forner: And in having any kind of form to do that on this national scale would be amazing I, as he said it's just the work so but there we go I hope we can.

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Jane Isabelle Forner: Do it.

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Laudan Nooshin: yeah if I can just step in an APP.

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Laudan Nooshin: So the working group that Garcia zaniness leading on which is the kind of the group that working good that liaises with individual departments, where they have a di working groups or web where they're thinking of setting them up.

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Laudan Nooshin: They are also i'd forgotten this they're putting together a hopefully some of that sort of helpful toolkit for departments for ideas for things that that that.

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Laudan Nooshin: You do kind of drawing on ideas that are coming up in this forum, and so on, so I mean I imagine again that'll take some time to put together, but that working group is is on the case on.

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Laudan Nooshin: awesome.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): that's great thanks very much Okay, so what we'll do is bounce off that and i'm going to pitch.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Matthew heads question to everybody.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): And you can raise your hand if you want to say something about it Matthew asks anyone teach a module of female composers of Western art music any tips, for instance don't teach in a ghetto make it about historiography etc.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): I know that this sort of thing came up in in movies presentation, maybe, maybe has something, but other people here are very likely to have other such things, so you haven't answered Matthews question put your hand up.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): But also Genevieve has.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): typed in the Q amp a.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): that she is joining a panel series later this month by beyond borders called shining a light which aims to shine a light on individuals and their actions, where did that go that literally just disappeared in front of my eyes that question.

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alright.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): that's fine okay.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Genevieve say something say say.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): What you see right.

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Genevieve Arkle: Sorry, I was just typing and I didn't want to interrupt the really interesting Q and a's and questions and but beyond borders are basically organizing a one week of it's during reading week.

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Genevieve Arkle: And of kind of talk seminars discussions online with a number of different individuals, myself included.

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Genevieve Arkle: The series of different you know from different industries or conductors performers and composers as well, and myself from academia i'm just talking about.

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Genevieve Arkle: different aspects of diversity that's going on, particularly racial diversity across the industry at the moment and I think it's you know relatively small fee to sign up and join I think it's five pounds or something.

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Genevieve Arkle: But it looks to be a really promising opportunity for kind of cross discipline between performance composition and academia, so if anyone is interested in.

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Genevieve Arkle: hopping along I can always put the link maybe in the Q amp a section, if anyone would like some more information yeah fingers crossed, it will be a really nice.

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Genevieve Arkle: end of February week of diversity discussion hopefully.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): it's great thanks service, we can also actually if you have the link to hand, perhaps you could post it on the Twitter feed.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): That would be really helpful anybody who's not already on Twitter, we are at ED I music studies and you can also find the group on Facebook and that would also there is a there are a couple of different Facebook spaces actually just to go back to the previous question about sharing.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): sharing experiences syllabuses and so on that's we've got a sort of general page that we can sort of push stuff out on but there's also a private group, which is designed to be much more.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): of a closed say space, you have to answer a number of questions to be allowed into the group, but then you know we can have kind of discussions on going in there, so anybody who.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Is on Facebook or Twitter, you can find us on those um Okay, so I have a question here from Chris who asks lauren specifically.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): To expand on the comment related to the language of D colonizing not always being relevant and appropriate so yeah the question of whether the colonizing is is absolutely actually the right sort of term for us to be.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Using and then I think we've got some callers come back in on Matthews question as well.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): So yeah go ahead lauren.

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Lauren Redhead: Yes, hi Chris and yeah So what we found in the research was that sometimes the term D colonizing was being used to describe situations where.

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Lauren Redhead: Equality and Diversity work was being done, but it wasn't necessarily work that fitted in with really an understanding of the colonizing as we found it in the literature that especially about curriculum so, for example, where.

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Lauren Redhead: You know, good work was being done and we're not saying that those things shouldn't have happened but, for example, it might be to do with.

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Lauren Redhead: Removing the criteria for music notation from the.

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Lauren Redhead: The like the need to study music notation within a certain curriculum, and so the language of D colonizing being used for that, but in fact that curriculum was then still focused on all examples that come from artists of.

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Lauren Redhead: Northern Europe and America, and so within that we found that there was to use the term de colonizing didn't really explain what was happening there, it did make that curriculum more accessible to a.

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Lauren Redhead: broader range of students, but yet there was still kind of criticisms or improvements that could be made to that.

423
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Lauren Redhead: To the colonizer and to think about the you know different relationships that people have with that music and the relationships that that music has with other traditions, so what we were wary of is how the term D colonizing is sometimes used to.

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Lauren Redhead: signal that something is fine, or that the project is complete or the different interpretations of that curriculum.

425
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Lauren Redhead: can't be had and so we're trying to avoid that complication and think about how.

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Lauren Redhead: They might be bored issues of equality, diversity and inclusion and then there might be specific things that are to do with.

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Lauren Redhead: d colonizing which which have a specific meaning and a specific relationship with histories and traditions in music and in society that that need to be acknowledged and needs to be at the forefront of those.

428
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Lauren Redhead: Those discussions, so I probably haven't explained that very well, but basically we're trying to avoid using language to say there's something has happened that hasn't yet happened that that's what we're trying to do.

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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): So super thanks arnie it's it's a phrase that, if I might jump in myself, I always wondered whether it's exactly the the most helpful term as well because.

430
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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Because it is so bound up with a specific set of power relations.

431
01:10:04.140 --> 01:10:21.240
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): That it doesn't necessarily always speak as, obviously, or as directly it's not set doesn't speak at all, but it doesn't kind of jump in its speech towards other sets of of power relations that we found on helpful in curricular.

432
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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): So you know if the colonizing kind of takes us to this idea of a colonial history where power relations is centered on.

433
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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Questions of race, then you know, questions of gender relations of sexual relations are all kinds of other populations that.

434
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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): it's, not to say that they're not also implicated in in that kind of question of the colonizing but that abroad, a question is or the centering might actually be sometimes a more useful term I mean it's.

435
01:10:52.620 --> 01:11:01.860
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): it's kind of anybody's game still, I guess, and I wonder, Chris do you want to come back with anything is there anything that you want to say in response to lauren more clarification.

436
01:11:02.580 --> 01:11:04.890
Chrys Chijiutomi: And yeah thanks lauren and.

437
01:11:05.460 --> 01:11:06.900
Chrys Chijiutomi: I think that helps clarify.

438
01:11:07.740 --> 01:11:09.060
Chrys Chijiutomi: what you were saying I mean it was.

439
01:11:10.350 --> 01:11:21.030
Chrys Chijiutomi: It fleshed out actually what I thought might be hinting out because I felt that when you were saying it there was potentially an implication that it wasn't an appropriate.

440
01:11:21.600 --> 01:11:30.210
Chrys Chijiutomi: word to use and my concern is is actually On one hand you've got lots of people who do use it, but not define what they mean when they're using it.

441
01:11:30.720 --> 01:11:37.890
Chrys Chijiutomi: And to say to speak that to phrase point actually i'm I would actually disagree about.

442
01:11:38.880 --> 01:11:48.930
Chrys Chijiutomi: The lack of intersection ality that's implied by using it if people see it specifically through race, but in and of itself that's actually some of the issue.

443
01:11:49.470 --> 01:11:54.300
Chrys Chijiutomi: Because it's the power relations that obviously have come from you know cleaner way of viewing the world.

444
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Chrys Chijiutomi: And I suppose I wonder if people are actually doing the work of of looking back to say writers like maneuver.

445
01:12:00.930 --> 01:12:09.060
Chrys Chijiutomi: Who actually has the term deacon reality and it speaks about the broader power relations that are being D colonized that don't just say.

446
01:12:09.450 --> 01:12:19.770
Chrys Chijiutomi: Talk of the more obvious understanding of colonization and I got a real concern in general, when we're using this language, especially the word diversity.

447
01:12:20.100 --> 01:12:27.120
Chrys Chijiutomi: And what people are saying is diverse, because sometimes diversity is used as the code word for race, for example, so I think.

448
01:12:27.690 --> 01:12:32.340
Chrys Chijiutomi: it's it seems really important in the whatever where people are doing, they are being very explicit about.

449
01:12:32.880 --> 01:12:46.590
Chrys Chijiutomi: The meaning of all of these words and not being something that we're always talking about the same meaning, even if we use a word like what especially we use a word like diversity or or even equality, you know but yeah.

450
01:12:48.180 --> 01:12:55.140
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): yeah no I mean just to respond I couldn't agree more, I absolutely agree that you know, the idea of.

451
01:12:56.550 --> 01:12:56.850
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): The.

452
01:12:58.080 --> 01:13:07.650
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Of colonizing is not limited to a racial conversation by any means and and that diversity is not as somebody wants.

453
01:13:08.100 --> 01:13:14.430
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Put it to me, is not something you can measure in in melanin content right, this is not something that you can always see.

454
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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): And i'm keenly aware of that, in the ways in which I, you know, bring a different experience to to any group that i'm in is you know is what is my faces.

455
01:13:23.790 --> 01:13:32.580
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): You know, there are there are ways in which, I might bring a diversity, to a certain group of people, so I think yeah you're absolutely right about that I guess My point is that.

456
01:13:34.830 --> 01:13:37.710
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): yeah it's a it's a complicated thing that's all i'm really saying.

457
01:13:38.880 --> 01:13:47.310
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): let's go back if we can, please, to to Matthews question a lot and I think wanted to bring something in on that is that right.

458
01:13:48.660 --> 01:13:51.450
Laudan Nooshin: No, no, I just didn't want us to forget that he'd asked that question oh.

459
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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): I see.

460
01:13:51.930 --> 01:13:53.430
Laudan Nooshin: It went into the answered box.

461
01:13:53.670 --> 01:13:54.420
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Yes, of course.

462
01:13:54.480 --> 01:13:57.120
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Yes, absolutely absolutely and I did actually.

463
01:13:57.510 --> 01:14:06.240
Laudan Nooshin: Also, added to it as well yeah indeed okay fine, so I think i've also sort of invoked mimi's name on all of that.

464
01:14:07.560 --> 01:14:15.390
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): When I sort of suggested that you might have something to say, broadly speaking, to Matthew about those tips I don't know if you want to come in there.

465
01:14:16.290 --> 01:14:32.490
Mimi Haddon: So hi Matthew I don't teach I don't teach any Western art music on the module because at this point it's too far away from my area of expertise, but just maybe a couple of ideas so that module is called histories of women, women in music so.

466
01:14:32.490 --> 01:14:32.970
plural.

467
01:14:34.140 --> 01:14:37.830
Mimi Haddon: So i'm not just thinking about you know history of women and music.

468
01:14:37.830 --> 01:14:40.350
Matthew Head: Has this kind of singular diet chronic kind of.

469
01:14:40.710 --> 01:14:52.320
Mimi Haddon: idea but it's more about so I combine issues of genre so I look at different genres like jazz hip hop electronic music noise and then apply different kinds of her hermeneutics lenses.

470
01:14:53.070 --> 01:15:00.120
Mimi Haddon: And so girlhood silence issues of access so using those two things in combination.

471
01:15:00.690 --> 01:15:12.780
Mimi Haddon: And not thinking of you know, the material as a kind of like a singular history is one way, perhaps of dealing with some of the issues that you're encountering but, as I say, I can't speak for Western on either so cool.

472
01:15:13.890 --> 01:15:14.250
Mimi Haddon: yeah.

473
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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Thanks.

474
01:15:19.140 --> 01:15:20.910
Matthew Head: I was gonna say yeah that's really interesting and.

475
01:15:21.150 --> 01:15:33.900
Matthew Head: My instincts would be traditionally My instinct would be to to mix it up in that way and not to centralize it around some kind of figure of the composer and and seek to recover.

476
01:15:35.400 --> 01:15:41.490
Matthew Head: A parade of great female composers, or something, the only thing is that it's almost as though.

477
01:15:42.030 --> 01:15:57.000
Matthew Head: And this is where my follow up coming comments coming i'm just wondering if any of you have experienced this where the equality diversity inclusion agenda as it seems to have sprung up quite quickly and fiercely very recently.

478
01:15:59.160 --> 01:16:05.820
Matthew Head: returns as possibly to an essential ISM that intellectually.

479
01:16:06.990 --> 01:16:10.470
Matthew Head: We may have in a way, I grow or critiqued.

480
01:16:11.940 --> 01:16:16.050
Matthew Head: And it's sort of how to cope with that.

481
01:16:18.600 --> 01:16:26.910
Matthew Head: dissonance between an intellectual life which, in my cases, you know forms through deconstruction post-structuralism.

482
01:16:28.680 --> 01:16:35.580
Matthew Head: discourse analysis and then a renewed emphasis on the kind of absolute ethical.

483
01:16:36.630 --> 01:16:50.850
Matthew Head: Priority of identity categories and I have to say I haven't quite managed to work my way through it yeah but I imagine you guys probably are further along that road.

484
01:16:55.710 --> 01:17:12.180
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Thanks Matthew um yeah that it's it's it's an interesting question that the we come back again to this point, I think, around language and the kind of language that we're using the way in which we use it and whether, whether we are actually on sort of usefully.

485
01:17:12.390 --> 01:17:14.010
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): On the on the same page.

486
01:17:14.670 --> 01:17:31.860
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Or at least barely on different pages and broadly moving in in a progressing sort of direction, so I think this is some yeah These are the things that are going to exercise us for a very long time still i'm quite sure of that.

487
01:17:33.360 --> 01:17:40.470
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Okay, so I think we are heading towards having to absolutely wrap up i'm going to just.

488
01:17:41.520 --> 01:17:44.280
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Open the floor against if anybody wants to.

489
01:17:45.330 --> 01:17:50.730
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): shout out from departments that they're doing a thing that might be interesting or useful.

490
01:17:51.210 --> 01:18:02.370
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): sue's put in a question answer here say that actually knowing about good practice and names and links of people expertise from other people in the network will be especially useful.

491
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Freya Jarman (any pronouns): You know, as Adams develops, but also, you know, this is exactly the right sort of space to people to kind of say yes i'm doing a thing that I would like to share so by all means kind of put your hand up, if you would like to.

492
01:18:16.020 --> 01:18:33.000
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): say something also if anyone has any events relating to API issues or decolonization or any of the themes that we've been talking about today do just absolutely put your hand up.

493
01:18:34.230 --> 01:18:40.230
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): In the absence of any of those I guess, I will sort of fill the space, I suppose.

494
01:18:41.640 --> 01:19:00.270
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): we're going to get the various links and resources that people have shared today and we'll we'll make those available to anybody who's attended today, this whole meeting will be available on the website, just as soon as i've worked out technologically how to do exactly that.

495
01:19:01.710 --> 01:19:10.740
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): So there's that do also follow us on Twitter if you're not already that's at edm music studies COM or find us on Facebook.

496
01:19:13.080 --> 01:19:34.890
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): If you just search for items you'll find it i'm quite sure of that and if any departments want to present something and speak at a future forum event, then please get in touch with law Dan or or Helen you can obviously look either of them up on the websites and.

497
01:19:36.000 --> 01:19:46.740
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): they've got a Google presence and you can also just generally email Adams dot hello@gmail.com if anybody wants to.

498
01:19:48.000 --> 01:20:03.840
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Talk from their perspective in a particular departments to share things that we really amazing if, on the other hand, you would like to talk to a colleague gaseous Union about support for individual departments, then again just kind of.

499
01:20:04.950 --> 01:20:19.710
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Either drop Garcia a line or email Adams hello, as you know that COM, we can put you in touch and and take it from there did anybody from the panel have anything that they wanted to wrap up with at all.

500
01:20:22.110 --> 01:20:30.900
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): I just sort of made a bit of a rubbish attempt to answer Matthews question in the Q amp a towards an answer to the question so.

501
01:20:31.890 --> 01:20:40.830
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): That was great thanks for me, I think, towards is very much the mood of the entire thing right, I think, is on basically putting one foot in front of the other and.

502
01:20:41.760 --> 01:20:55.860
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): crossing the Red Sea, as it were, to go back to my opening analogy, then we're all in a good place So yes, his to lots of towards thing i'll wrap it up there, thanks everybody for coming I will see you at the next one.

503
01:20:57.000 --> 01:20:57.360
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): Whenever.

504
01:20:58.170 --> 01:20:58.980
Lauren Redhead: Thank you so much.

505
01:20:59.880 --> 01:21:01.230
Laudan Nooshin: For for sharing.

506
01:21:01.320 --> 01:21:01.530
Laudan Nooshin: My.

507
01:21:01.770 --> 01:21:04.170
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): pleasure and performing bye everyone bye bye bye.

508
01:21:20.160 --> 01:21:25.590
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): yeah we've lost most of the panelists lockdown it's just the three of us, I think i'm going to stop the recording now surely.

509
01:21:26.130 --> 01:21:26.940
Freya Jarman (any pronouns): yeah okay.